Ok! I'm glad to get that argument about truth out of the way, it was a bit difficult so I hope it made some sense! What I was hoping to achieve was to lay some foundation for the credibility of the bible (without referring to historical, archeological sources - waaaay too much stuff!). It has a lot to say about us and hopefully someone will read these blogs and decide to take a chance on it themsleves.
So this next few topics (I know I ramble on So I will try and break it down to smaller posts) I want to dedicate to mankind. Please understand I want to do this from a Christian perspective.
So - what does the bible say about us, why are we here on this earth? So the story goes -
There were seven phases to creation (creation of light, creation of heaven, creation of plants, creation of sun and moon, creation of living creatures, Creation of man, rest), the pinnacle of it all being the creation of mankind.
It says that God gave the earth as a dominion for us, a place for us to enjoy and be with Him. It wasn't a hap-hazard experiment with DNA and minerals, it was made with purpose and intent - just as we are. There is nothing simple about us, every single member of our being was planned out to the smallest detail, the miracle of man is greater than the miracle of a spinning planet.
We were made in His image, His very likeness - living, breathing souls. We have thoughts, emotions, sensations. We can admire beauty, love, eat, walk, sleep - every little thing that we take as granted is a gift from God. Of Himself He says 'there is none like Me' - and yet we are of all creation the only thing that was made after His image. He placed eternity itself in our hearts and breathed into us His very spirit, which places us firmly in the centre of His purpose. The purpose of the whole of His creative act was us - we were made for Him.
Wednesday, 31 October 2007
The Nature of Man
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
38 comments:
Hi Teif,
I have preached a few times in some fellowships which one day i will be held accountable by a Jewish Judge called Jesus.
I have always been tempted to say from the pulpit.
"Turn to someone and say that I am a vile horrible sinner and the only place that I should go is to hell because I have offended a Holy God! I don't think that some of the churches we know will ever invite me back? Do you.?
But I believe thats what man is!
born a sinner, always a sinner but I am interested in what you indeed to say here.
Sorry, should read intend
Hi El,
I don't disagree with you mate - I'm story telling from an angle of God's intention - hopefully I will get there!
Tefion,
I have added you to my 'Fellowship of the Blog'.
Like the photo up Storey Arms.
Joe...
Tefi,
i use a great online bible resource called BibleGateway. It has so many different translations at the touch of a button.
www.biblegateway.com
Check it out.
Joe...
Hi Joe! Thanks mate :-)
Bible gateway - I think I have seen it a few times - apparently the 'blue letter bible' is supposed to be a great tool too.
Elwyn if you would have had me say that whole 'vile sinner thing' i just might have had to punch someone, what an appalling confession for a child of God to confess. The gospel is certainly the most unappealing truth when it served in such a way - Please read 2 Corinthians 5;17 again.
Therefore if any person is (grafted) in Christ he is a new creation (a new creature altogether) the old (previous moral and spiritual condition) has passed away. Behold! the new and fresh has come!
I can understand if you are talking about the un-regenerated man ( the heathen), but to call a Christian such a thing is just plain wrong. A New Creation, the old has passed away under the power of water batpism, The Spirit of God has come to dwell in you (never happened to you before) Your future has been changed and your past has been re-written, as a child of promise.
When God created the earth he thought of You Elwyn and me Ben first..... David says that you have created man, created man, a little lower than God yet higher than the angels!!
It is not how you see yourself or your fellow man (Christian) but how God sees you, and he sees you through the redemptive blood of Christ, seated on a throne that is encircled by a rainbow of covenant and love. God sees no fault in you whatsoever because Christ had no fault in him, and it is through his blood that we stand before that great big and lofty Jewish Judge!! I may not be perfect (between you and me) but i complete by the blood of Jesus.
Get out of that miry clay and onto the solid rock man!!
Guys! Guys! haha.
Have you ever read 'The Normal Christian Faith'? What A cracking book, one of my favourites. Watchman Nee takes us on a journey through romans, form our roots in Adam to our roots in Christ. And here's the deal - Jesus' torture deals with our sins, but His death deals with the sinner. We have been given the promise of translation from one kingdom into another - from death unto life - the Holy Spirit being the very seal of that redemptive promise.
Paul cries 'oh death where is thy sting?!' We still are accursed in the flesh - ever a part of this system, but our salvation is promised.
1 John 3:4-10
" Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother."
We will be given NEW bodies, the flesh is cursed to die - and redemption has not changed that- that's why we must die daily to our flesh. Redemption's future promise is of the new body. Guys read 1 Cor 15.
What I am is a sinner. I am saved by grace. The seal of the Holy Spirit has been placed on me for redemption. God sees me through Christ's propitiation, His penal substitution.
We are what we are - a New creation Born of the Spirit - but the flesh wil always want to rule. We have a gift, a regenerate gift in our Spirit which we exorcise over the fleshly man and put it right.
Every day is the narrow path. You both are right.
2 Cor 16:18
So we do not lose heart. Though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self is being renewed day by day. For this light momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison, as we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen. For the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal.
Teif
Book is 'Normal Christian Life' lol
Oh the 'Sinners Saved By Grace' teaching.
I believe that is one of the most pious pieces of Bull in the evangelical church. I hate it, physically, spiritually.
There is NO scriptural evidence of such a teaching in the Bible. In fact every scripture regarding the new birth says the opposite. For Christ to die for our sins and go through a horrific death and I come to His cross a sinner and then walk away a sinner makes the calvary a farce.
I am a Christian, Believer, Follower of the Way, Child of God, The righteousness of God in Christ Jesus, A creation, My life is hidden with Christ in God, As God is so are we in this world, I have the mind of Christ, I have been joined with Him in the likeness of His death and I have been joined with Him in the likeness of His ressurrection, It is no longer I that lives but Christ who lives and this life I now live I live by faith in the son of God who loved me and gave His life for me. In Him I live, move and have my existence. (Thats all the scripture that I can think of the top of my head after a shift at work. hee hee)
I was a sinner and now I am a new creation. The flesh is dead but my spirit is now alive and restored to right relationship with my Father.
You always make accomodation for your confession, if you call yourself a sinner then you'll sin more often. But I call myself RIGHTEOUS, because that how God sees me. Holy without Fault (Ephesians 1:4).
Oooooh I feel good!! faith comes boyz.
Joe...
Romans 3:23-26
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Eph 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Rom 6:10-14
For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.
Jesus dealt with the rule of the sprit of condemnation, the curse of flesh is to die (Romans 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live), why else are we called to be 'spiritual people'. GOD HAS NOT REDEEMED THE FLESH, HE HAS REDEEMED THE SOUL THROUGH PROVIDING A NEW BODY. WE DO NOT HAVE THAT YET. BUT WE HAVE AN INCORRUPTABLE SPIRIT.
The cross deals with the spirit - the sting of death is sin. How then can we be free of sin if we still face death? It is because of the flesh - it's selfishness.
The Spirit is new and incorruptible - but we sow to the flesh we will die (in apostasy).
Ben! Punching people aside, read 2 Cor again (the whole chapter)and through 6 into chapter 7. We come to verse 1:
Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, bringing holiness to completion in the fear of God.
If we are no longer sinners (note the distinction made between sin (the root) and sins (the result) in Romans. This is crucial to understanding Paul's theology - the flesh still sins, but we are no longer in sin. No longer a sinner is a falacy (we all still commit these sins - it is the flesh!) but the root - the sprirt is free from the root of sin - it's power (hence the decent of Christ to hades - abraham's bosom).
Joe is right - the cross and resurrection deals with the 'spiritual root'. But the flesh needs ruling because of sinful desire. The flesh is ever a part 'by nature' of a cursed world system - it is why Paul exhorts us to 'die daily' to it's desires.
Guys it's easy to make a doctrine when you hand-pick verses - I listen to the bible on audio when I can - it is suprising what we learn from just listening to the word itself and you hear it all in context.
Hi Ben.
The Bible tells us that we are to walk with our God "HUMBLY". Our christian walk should be a life of repentance and thanksgiving to a wonderful Saviour Jesus Christ.
Can you please tell me why Paul the apostle wrote to Timothy inspired by the Holy Spirit approx 20 years after meeting Christ on the road to Damascus. Paul the Great Apostle said "I am the chief of all sinners" ? (1 tim 1v15)
and why he said in Romans 7;16 "That there is no good thing in me"?
Ben, I deserve nothing but Hell, and if God sends me there I haven't a single complaint to make, I deserve nothing better! I am a sinner, I have deeply offended a Holy God. But I have asked God on my knees in the name of His Son Jesus Christ to forgive me and save me and I rely completely on the mercy of God.
God has saved me, I love him, He has given me His free gift of salvation, I am a Christian but I am still a SINNER and if I was to tell you that I do not sin now I would be a liar! and Liars don't make it!
Teifion has offered some good verses for you to check out, do a berean on him and if you want him to clarify anything he will be delighted to explain further. actually Teif is becoming quite an apologists ( In defence of the Faith)
Elwyn, do you think there is a possibility that you might go to Hell?
This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Ben, If you had asked me that question seven years ago I would have likely said yes. I won't go into what happened 7 years ago because i think you know what I am on about.
I am desperately trying to become a man who cherishes faith in Christ as the only mediator between God and man. I must hold the Bible as the only rule of life. I believe the Gospel but I have found out that there seems to be 000's of gospels out there.
It's the duty of every christian to learn from the Bible what is truth and then walk in the light and encourage others to do the same. We must day by day study the Bible diligently weighing every thought and comparing scripture with scripture. We have got to go to the private place and repent of our sins and seek forgiveness from our Lord and to wait on him humbly.
Shouldn't our prayers today be.
Lord God, heavenly father have pity on us and pardon our sins for our only desire is to know the truth of your Son Jesus Christ.
Will I go to Hell when I die. I hope not because my hope is in the merits of a Crucified and Risen Saviour Jesus.
I think when it comes to the knowledge of Christ, the emphasis is again placed on the spirit. While it is necessary to study the scriptures and re-program the carnal mind, we also have a duty allow the working from 'within' change the natuer from 'without'. have a look at these verses from 2 peter:
His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
First faith, then virtue (integrity in that faith), then knowledge leading to self control and steadfastness (then godliness etc...).
So we cannot attain 'godliness' without the scripture (or the addition of knowledge). It is our duty (if we are to grow) to study the scriptures - if we want to be godly people. But first comes integrity!
"He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?" Micah 6:8
Good comment Teif,
Micah 6.8 A lovely verse for all of us to think about.
You are right "Intergrity" It's so important. I think it's also important to become or develop a fundamentaly seriousness especially in the things of God but that doesn't mean a lack of a sense of humour. There have been times where Mark R and myself have discussed issues sobely and seriously but on other times we have had a good laugh together so a Christian man should have a balance view point.
I know Joe and ben are fans of Mr Benny Hinn but every time I see him on the God channels I end up laughing and I can't take him seriously. I will expect a repuke from my brothers out there in America but come on boys you have got to be kidding me!
Teif I am a bit older than you so I will say, so far, I have not met a good man yet! and I certaintly am not a good man. Let the discussion begin. Have you met a good man????
Oh the 'Sinners Saved By Grace' teaching.
I believe that is one of the most pious pieces of Bull in the evangelical church. I hate it, physically, spiritually.
There is NO scriptural evidence of such a teaching in the Bible.
ARE YOU SURE JOE?
I meet good men, and women, every day.
Joe...
Mark 10v18.
And Jesus said unto him, why callest thou good? There is none good but one, that is God.
Paul the Apostle also said that there was no good in him.
What does it all mean Joe?
There's four good men talking on this comment page right now.....
Well Ben I am not an essentially and morally perfect man! Actually someone said of me how could I be a loving man because I am so narrow-minded and dogmatic in my christian view point. Does it matter what we believe as long as we practice love or what feels right or what seems to be right?
Elwyn you take the word of God toooooooo literally (is that the word?. Lifes nt that tough. God isn't that tough.
If God is Love, as John tell us, and that God thinks of us as nothing as filthy, evil, bad people. then God can keep His love.
He loves us, warts and all, so that fills me with so much joy because I'm accepted into His family. His Grace allows me the privilidge of being Born Again and having the power of the Holy Spirit in me changing me day by day, or experience to experience to be mre like Him.
Let me say it this way. He wants me to know more of Him through what I go through. A dear woman said to me once "Joe, he's just preparing you for eternity, so that you know Him more".
I pray to, joke with, God "Lord, I don't want my passing into heaven to be too much of a shock. So please bring more of your Will here on earth".
Now I know that it will be a shock. But He's my Abba Father and I can joke with my earthly Cliff and I most certainly can with my Heavenly Cliff!. hee hee.
I'm not trying to earn His approval, I have it in Christ. I'm not trying to win His love, I have it Christ. So if Jesus said that he had come to give us life in full measure, then I'm going to live that life here on earth and pray more of His will into this world that needs Jesus.
Also, This world is sooooooo beautiful under the curse whats it going to be like when the curse is lifted off of creatioin? WOW!! Pen-y-fan will never look so beautiful. Thats hard for me to imagine as I used to see it everyday from my bedroom window.
I just know that Christ died for more than just a 'Evil, Filthy, Worm' mentaility. Jesus doesn't think like that and He has given us His mind.
As ever,
Joe...
In Christ alone my hope is found
He is my light, my strength, my song
This cornerstone, this solid ground
Firm through the fiercest drought and storm
What heights of love, what depths of peace
When fears are stilled, when strivings cease
My comforter, my all-in-all
Here in the love of Christ I stand
In Christ alone who took on flesh
Fullness of God in helpless babe
This gift of love and righteousness
Scorned by the ones He came to save
'Til on that Cross, as Jesus died
The wrath of God was satisfied
For every sin on Him was laid
Here in the death of Christ I live
There in the ground His body lay
Light of the world by darkness slain
Then bursting forth in glorious day
Up from the grave He rose again
And as He stands in victory
Sin's curse has lost its grip on me
For I am His and He is mine
Bought with the precious blood of Christ
No guilt in life, no fear in death
This is the power of Christ in me
From life's first cry to final breath
Jesus commands my destiny
No power of hell, no scheme of man
Can ever pluck me from His hand
'Til He returns or calls me home
Here in the power of Christ I'll stand
'Til He returns or calls me home
Here in the power of Christ I stand
Here in the power of Christ alone
Joe,
I am just a bit confused with your statement
"Oh the 'Sinners Saved By Grace' teaching.
I believe that is one of the most pious pieces of Bull in the evangelical church. I hate it, physically, spiritually.
There is NO scriptural evidence of such a teaching in the Bible."
We are Christians because of God's grace. We are saved by the Gospel. The one true "Gospel of grace".
We are hopeless sinners already condemned to eternal death or we wouldn't need to be saved!. Christ payed the full penalty for our sins. This is the solemn teaching of the Bible. Salvation comes on God's terms and by His grace. God the Father sent God the Son to be the saviour of the world. Salvation is the work of God and His Son we either believe it or reject it!
The Gospel is all about what Christ Has done. Christ died for our sins. There is nothing we can do.
"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us" (titus 3.5) If we don't believe we are sinners saved by the grace of God, taking pity on us we will never get to heaven. That's what Evangelicals believe and what's pious about that because it's the Truth.
Your statement was quite alarming!
and difficult to understand.
And if life is not that tough perhaps you should find out what is happening to our brothers in other parts of the world!
Just to satisfy curiosity - does anyone here disagree with the following?
Without Christ-
The body is sinful in nature
The spirit is unregenerate
We are seperated from God
With Christ-
The desires of the flesh are sinful in nature - we die daily to it
The spirit is regenerate
We have communion with the Father
I also believe in the division of Body/Soul/Spirit - the soul being the union of body and spirit (man's conciousness)
I think I'm well overdue another posting lol (not the type we used to get on the rugby pitch in Rhydfelen boys!)
I agree.Although we all stuggle with sin more than we wish to admit!That's why it is so important to go to God daily to seek His forgiveness.
From The forgiven sinner and loving trouble- maker
"Jones the end of the world"
Teif hope you don't mind?
Joe. I am not sure when you said "don't take the Bible too literal?"
I just read it! and study it!
I hope you didn't say to your airline pilot prior to your flight.
"Hey Dai don't take those flying manuals to literal- Just spread your wings and soar like an eagle, boyo!
And if I ever decide to have a vasectomy ( fat chance of that happening) I am going to make sure that the surgeon has read the instruction manual and he literally takes the instructions literally before he says " I'm going to make a few incisions and it's going to HURT.lots.
There was a workplace accident a few years ago (I'm a safety officer) and if the poor young lady had read the instructions posted on the machine and taken it literally she would have not had three fingers on her right hand cut off.
The modern man in the 21st century who believes the Gospel should study the Bible to learn all about sound doctrine and to learn how to discern the truth so when Charlatans and Con men come along to seduce us to chase after a man centred and man- worship gospel we will be able to recognise their falseness and lies and not be deceived.
Always remember " Nothing is more contrary to a heavenly hope than an earthly heart" said by William Gurnall
I think we're both about £50 short on a deal.
I see my life from the, I believe, Christian saved and sanctified, justified, in crazy love with Jesus, I have it all in Christ, viewpoint.
I'm not facing calvary I'm dancing by the empty tomb full of the Holy Spirit.
Tefion, i agree with you too on your statements. But I'm dead!!! My Spirit is alive and that is the REAL me. My flesh has a go everyday, but I'm under no obligation to listen to it.
The words i quoted from Galatians 2v20 (I think) are my mantra "It is no longer I that live BUT CHRIST who lives in me and this life I live by Faith in the Son of God who loved me and died for me".
Colossians 3 (?) "Set your mind on the things that are above where Christ is, seated at the right hand of the Father...." and then it says..... hold on let me get the scripture.....here we go:
Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. 2Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. 3For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. 4When Christ, who is your[a] life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.
ahhhhhh that makes me happy. as a man thinks in his heart so is he! I'm righteous because that is what Christ calls me. I'm not a sinner. was, but not anymore. I pre-dosposed to rightousness and not sin. That part is dead. gone. buried and pushing up daisies. Sometimes I listen to my flesh but it grieves me more each time i disobey. I HATE SIN and I LOVE RIGHTEOUSNESS!!!
What an honour to be a child of God.
Elwyn, You wouldn't walk arount your home when all your biys were at home and call them 'Good For Nothing worms, Evil vile condemned to a fiery grave filth", WOULD YOU? well if you did then you'd be down with my Father in HMP Parc.
So why would God, and remember the scripture when Jesus said about us earthly fathers giving good gifts to our children, let us in His house, clothe us like the prodigals as we are, empower us with His Spirit and just look at us and call us SINNERS!!!
You wouldn't do it in the natural, and God doesn't do it in the Spiritual.
You'll never convince me otherwise.
Joe...
Joe...
Hi Joe,
I think this is going to be a good subject to debate on. I think though that again we have take scripture into context. So I have broken it down to this:
Joe James - the old man is dead, I am a new creation.
Teifidog - We die daily to the flesh, I am new creation.
So here's the humdinger...!
If we are triune in nature (Flesh & Spirit = Soul) then how can we be independant of our flesh without ceasing to be a living soul?
This is why paul talks about a new body in 1 cor 15. I don't want to go into putting loads of scriptures down again (takes so long to read).
This is the miracle - we are now the temples of God because His spirit abides in us. BUT THE FLESH is sitll there. Listen to what Paul says (romans 6:5)
"For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his."
Paul is looking 'forward' to the day of resurrection when we will be provided the 'soul incorruptible', not just the renewed spirit. It is true that Chrst came so that we may have the fullness of life - spiritual life. You see it is wrong to charge interest on a loan (making money from someone else's misfortune), and this is what the thief does, he takes. Sin takes. But in contrast God gives us a gift, a newness of life, life abundant. To quote from Tyndale:
**Those who are really "His own" listen to His voice. They recognize that He has been sent from God, and are ready to follow Him as the good Shepherd, who by His sacrificial love rescues His flock from evil and death, and leads them into the best of all pasturage where they can enjoy a richer and a fuller life (9,10). He does not offer them an extension of physical life nor an increase of material possessions, but the possibility, nay the certainty, of a life lived at a higher level in obedience to God's will and reflecting His glory.**
Romans 7:21-24
So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
We see then in verses 1-11 of chapter eight (romans) that jesus died to save the spirit, and through obedience to the 'righteous mind' (mind set on spirit is life and peace). This is the 'abundant life' spoken of.
We are promised persecution if we are cleaved to christ - the body is one and many of our brothers sit in dark prisons, are beaten, hurt, malnourished, diseased and dying in the flesh. BUT THE PROMISE OF GOD IS ABUNDANT LIFE TO ALL WHO FOLLOW THE GOOD SHEPHERD. How can this be if our brothers are so treated? If we are to hold to 'health, wealth and peace for those who name it and claim it' then we make God a liar.
Our hope is coming with Jesus, the kingdom is here now, in our spirits, the rule of the mind paying no heed to the sinful desires of the flesh - we must CONSIDER IT DEAD. It is not dead but condemned - i.e. under sentance and penalty of the corruption of sin. Cursed.
Joe if you actually 'were' dead I would have been at your funeral. Instead we view our lives as being a mismatched union, the flesh forced to serve the mind of the spirit, not the mind forced to serve the flesh (as we were formally - ie.e the law).
No longer a sinner! Yes my brother what a true statement, for we now live a new life no longer subject to a yoke of slavery (to sin). We bear fruit to the pleasure of God, a sweet smelling fragrance of the living burnt offering before the holiest of holies. The fruits of the spirit - the outworking of the mind of righteusness.
But elwyn is right, he wants to remind us that we drag this condemned part of our nature around with us until the day of the Lord comes, when he will make all things new.
We are sinners (flesh) saved by grace (spirit). No longer a sinner (spirit) though we must deny the flesh daily.
This is where you take the scripture too literally and miss the Spirit of the Word.
Its both. I'm Dead and I die daily. Its not one or the other. Thats why I have the Holy Spirit to help to discern the difference.
If I'm overwiehgt, a reality to me, I have to die daily to certain fleshly pleasures that my body would like to indulge in.
Or, if I'm trying to give up cigs, then i need to lean on the Holy Spirit to break such distructive habits that may have passed over from my former life into this new life.
However, it is also I AM DEAD, MY FLESH IS DEAD. They are both true statements.
But if God has forgotten my sin then who am I to remind Him. Thats as simple as it gets for me.
Joe...
By the way I'm not giving up Cigs.
I'm giving up alot of things ie, arguing with Welsh men. hee hee.
sheesh, I could do with a cig, Willy pass us a woodbine.
Joe...
Joe, don't put yourself in a position of hiding behind a double standard, you are a better person than that. When you are faced by a hard truth it is very easy to ignore it and believe a lie. It's not your fault, you have had some bad teachers, who, if they had studied the scriptures properly, would not be doing the things they do.
Why do you say that I am a literal christian? How often have we heard an 'admonishment' to read the word of God (Joshua often used as an example), and yet condemned for to much reading?
I follow the spirit, I choose to deny the flesh. It is why I pray at times streched out on my face in supplication, it is why I fast, it is why I try to deny sudden instinct - not to swear, get angry without reason, strike back. I try to show compassion, kindness, patience, love.
Joe, I'm not interested in arguing either, but there is a worm mentality that eats away at the church, I will name it as me, myself and I (the selfish world system). We all have different gifts and talents, so we use them to glorify God. You spent a lot of time making your album, I have spent a lot of time questioning for the truth of the word. I would never turn round and say the music you have written is worthless, please extend me the courtesy of not viewing my studies as such.
Joe, check out my comments if you strongly disagree, show me where the texts I use differ from the 'spirit of truth'. All these discussion's we've had, they have helped me grow so much, challenged me so much. That is maturing.
Three verses to defend my position:
Hebrews 6:1
Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God
Hebrews 12:12-14
Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees, and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but rather be healed. Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.
Psalm 119:105/130
Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path/The unfolding of your words gives light; it imparts understanding to the simple.
We live according to the spirit, but we also have an earthly written gift, the bible! So we should use it, otherwise you might as well rip it up and throw it away. It is not a magic talisman, it is over a thousand years of recorded utterances of the spirit of truth. We are promised a reward for studying God's word. The level of spiritual and scriptural teaching recieved when I was at a certain church was quite poor. Though it resembled the truth (and I have no argument against sincerity here), it was wrong in certain things.
You could not see then how you were wrong about GOD>FAMILY>CHURCH, so question your foundations now and ask what God is trying to teach you through all our discussions.
Joe you are a great person, you've been through a big upheaval and it is a lot of effort to be bombarded by people like me when you have other things on your mind.
Take your bible, maybe fast for a few days, let it all be stripped away and approach it all again. You may find in a few months from now you will be agreeing more with what I say. If I am wrong then I hope God will show me the error of my ways.
Already you have reminded me a lot about forgiveness and forgetting.
All the best
Teifion
perhaps I just can't articulate myself properly. All I know is that I'm free. All the mess I got myself into He got me out of and what more Forgive me. Others may not have forgiven me but He has.
Thats all I know.
Ans perhaps 'Literal' is the wrong word. hmmmm? Maybe I mean to say that you are Sausages!!!
Who knows?
Big Smile on my face with a giant woodbine from Elwyn hanging out of it.
Joe...
No Joe, you can articulate yourself, I have been following your blogs these past few years. You do on occasions come out with some junk, cough! cough!but so do I.We have a laugh, have a little dig at each other but we also talk seriously about the things of God.
The problem with "happy clappies" is you promote the promises of healing, deliverance and prosperity with unshakable confidence but when the healing, deliverance and prosperity doesn't come you ain't got any answers and you crumble. How many of us as christians and I include myself how many of us sobely pursue Holiness and Sound Doctrine? (heb 12.14.--1 tim 4.16)
But it seems that Teifion is pursing that even after the crap he has had to face these past years. I feel quite humbled and challenged to study harder the Word of God and to face up to my failings as a believer. Pen-y-fan man is after those keys of knowledge of God's truth. He is not concerned with keeping the approval of his past teachers and friends who have denied or ignored the teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ and His true Apostles in order to keep the respect of them. neither do I.
Unless we go to the Word and it's light of biblical teaching we are all in danger of being lead up the garden path.
May God bless us all as we search the Bible to check out if these things are so.
Joe and just to pick up on a point you said!
These people who have not forgiven you. If you have asked them for forgiveness and they haven't forgiven you! please prayer for them because they won't get in to heaven!
This as been an interesting subject on the "Nature of Man". I doubt if I will ever settle back in my chair and fold my arms when i read your comments Teif because of your high view of scripture. I enjoy your exergisis. God does endower us with sense, reason and intellect although I do wonder if jam jar believes that God owes us a perfect world? however I do enjoy some of the things Joe says... He's so funny!.
I am astounded with this "No longer sinners" teaching that seems to be gaining acceptance in some churches. If I went to the fellowships that I now know and said that I was saint Elwyn and sinless they would likely chuck me out on my backside with a boot.
My wife Ang would call me a self deluded egotistical fool if I said to her that I am not a sinner anymore and has said to me that if men do believe that they are no longer sinners she would be interested in asking their wives for their opinions first!. How times have changed thirty years ago there used to be signs above some church doors that read "Sinners welcomed" now it seems that I would be unable to enter in because I am a sinner. And there's me thinking that church is a hospital for sinners!
I once thought that God loves me unconditionally because of my great value to Him, untill I realised it was my utter lack of value, that caused Him to give Himself for humans and sinners such has me. Which magnifies His grace. I realised that I was totally without merit ( and still are) but God loves us in spite of our unworthiness.
I wonder if King David was pious when he said. "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.(ps 51v5)
or when he said; You have made my days a mere handbreadth the span of my years is as nothing before you. each man's life is but a breath. (ps 39v5)
What must we make of
All have turned aside,they have together become corrupt-there is no one who does good, not even one.(ps 14v3)
What about Job when he said.
How much less man, who is vile and corrupt, who drinks up evil like water. (job 15v16)
Do you think that Isaiah would be invited to some churches we know after he said?Before Him all the nations are as nothing they are regarded by Him as worthless and less than nothing. (isa 40v17)
Did Paul the Apostle think like a worm or was he being negative when he said? If anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself (gal6v3)
I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature ( there it is for Ben the two natures!) for I have desire to do what is good but I cannot carry it out. (rom7v18)Wow, can I identify with that verse!
You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly (rom5v6)
So even after saint Joe and saint Ben attempts to correct me it seems that I am still unworthy, totally unmerited and sinful by nature because God's word says so. Hold on while I'll shout into the kitchen and tell Ang that according to the Bible I am a sinner. Yep! she agrees! But here comes the best bit. Because of God's grace and what Jesus Christ did for me because I have repented and asked God to forgive me, He Has.
I am a forgiven sinner and that's all christians are "Forgiven Sinners"
May The Lord add His blessing to His Word while we read and study for the Truth, because it's the Truth that sets us Free.
Post a Comment