At the behest of a good friend of mine I have decided to start keeping a little blog of some thoughts and questions I have had regarding the bible (Christian), it's values, ethics and principles. Having personally struggled with understanding it myself, the authenticity of it and the controversy of many passages, it is nonetheless a book I have come to love for it's simplicity by giving hope to those who would believe it, and endless depth to those who would wish to understand it. I personally believe there is no other book like this, written over a period of one thousand five hundred years; sixty six books by over fourty authors. And each pieced together beautifully to produce an oracle about Yeshua, the redeemer of mankind.
"So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God*" (words of Christ* - esv, nasb)
Romans 10:17
We can only have faith by hearing the word of God, it is not a substanceless gift, but rather an act of pilgrimage and devotion to the knowledge given to us of Jesus Christ.
"Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen"
Romans 11:1
"And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him"
Hebrews 11:6
"What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead."
James 2:14-17
I hope that through these blogs you also would start to reason and really consider what is written in this great book, and how those things affect us. Like it or not, it truly poses only one big question:
"What will you do with this man Jesus".
God Bless
Tuesday, 2 October 2007
Now faith comes by hearing...
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21 comments:
My dear friend.
Wow! (are middle aged grampas allowed to say Wow?)I called to see Mark Robins today and I told him that Angela and myself had been talking to you.
I just posted a comment on ben's site and happened to find out that you had started blogging.
Best of luck with your efforts and trust that the people who will read your blogs will take the time to check you out.
Until next time
May God bless you
Elwyn
Thanks Elwyn, I hope that the blogs will at the least get some interest! And hey, by the way... discussions welcome.
Praise him, the Teflon has landed. I look forward to reading about your thoughts.......The bible certainly a kicking piece of work, breathed by the Holy Ghost. Sometimes when i read it i let the pages fan over my face causing a gentle and soft breeze, and i say to the LORD "Just breathe on me, Holy Spirit reveal!!"
The Bible is off the chain, and all the parts i don't understand i know will be revealed through the diligent studies of a student in love with the creator and his creation.
Peace.
I like your book recommendations; George Muller is awesome, i have those on my shelf too
We have got to stop meeting like this Ben, people will call us sad!I have a good excuse I hate T.V. and Angela is watching Corrie street which allows me to go on the computer. however for Teifion. What about God's Grace?you know the verses.
God's Grace...
Firstly, let's divide grace and mercy. Mercy is not getting what you deserve, Grace is getting what you don't deserve.
(Greek word 'charis' - good will, loving-kindness, favour
Hebrew word 'Chn' - favour, grace, charm
English word 'grace' - a manifestation of favor (one of the meanings))
Important verses...
Ephesians 2:1-10
"And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."
Hebrews 2:1-18
"Therefore we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. For since the message declared by angels proved to be reliable, and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution, how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard, while God also bore witness by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.
Now it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come, of which we are speaking. It has been testified somewhere,
“What is man, that you are mindful of him,
or the son of man, that you care for him?
You made him for a little while lower than the angels;
you have crowned him with glory and honor,
putting everything in subjection under his feet.”
Now in putting everything in subjection to him, he left nothing outside his control. At present, we do not yet see everything in subjection to him. But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering. For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers, saying,
“I will tell of your name to my brothers;
in the midst of the congregation I will sing your praise.”
And again,
“I will put my trust in him.”
And again,
“Behold, I and the children God has given me.”
Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham. Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted."
Psalm 45
(CH SPURGEON - Some here see Solomon and Pharaoh's daughter only— they are short sighted; others see both Solomon and Christ—they are cross eyed; well focused spiritual eyes see here Jesus only, or if Solomon be present at all, it must be like those hazy shadows of by passers which cross the face of the camera, and therefore are dimly traceable upon a photographic landscape. "The King, "the God whose throne is for ever and ever, is no mere mortal and his everlasting dominion is not bounded by Lebanon and Egypt's river. This is no wedding song of earthly nuptials, but an Epithalamium for the Heavenly Bridegroom and his elect spouse.)
"My heart overflows with a pleasing theme;
I address my verses to the king;
my tongue is like the pen of a ready scribe.
You are the most handsome of the sons of men;
grace is poured upon your lips;
therefore God has blessed you forever.
Gird your sword on your thigh, O mighty one,
in your splendor and majesty!
In your majesty ride out victoriously
for the cause of truth and meekness and righteousness;
let your right hand teach you awesome deeds!
Your arrows are sharp
in the heart of the king's enemies;
the peoples fall under you.
Your throne, O God, is forever and ever.
The scepter of your kingdom is a scepter of uprightness;
you have loved righteousness and hated wickedness.
Therefore God, your God, has anointed you
with the oil of gladness beyond your companions;
your robes are all fragrant with myrrh and aloes and cassia.
From ivory palaces stringed instruments make you glad;
daughters of kings are among your ladies of honor;
at your right hand stands the queen in gold of Ophir.
Hear, O daughter, and consider, and incline your ear:
forget your people and your father's house,
and the king will desire your beauty.
Since he is your lord, bow to him.
The people of Tyre will seek your favor with gifts,
the richest of the people.
All glorious is the princess in her chamber, with robes interwoven with gold.
In many-colored robes she is led to the king,
with her virgin companions following behind her.
With joy and gladness they are led along
as they enter the palace of the king.
In place of your fathers shall be your sons;
you will make them princes in all the earth.
I will cause your name to be remembered in all generations;
therefore nations will praise you forever and ever."
-----------------------------
To answer Elwyn's question...
We must have faith in the unmerited favour of God - He has bestowed upon the elect (known as the church) mercy and grace (favour) through Jesus Christ, emmanuel.
We must therefore have faith in His grace, the knowledge of which has been passed to us through scripture and speech (or anyform of coomunication), and that is the truth being preached. These things are made possible through His Holy Spirit (John 15:26, 16:3 and Romans 9:1)
Romans 1-4, concentrating on two verses of chapter 4
That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace... It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.
Thank you for your reply, you spent a lot of time and care in what you wrote.
So God's mercy allows us to have faith to hear His word so we can accept the Gospel and there By be saved. Then God gives His grace to us for that knowledge and understanding we so desperately need ( If we are all honest we are all stupid and we need God's help )
So in my case I cried out to God for help He gave me His mercy for me to accept the Gospel message and then I realised I was a worthless, vile sinner and I repented and He saved me and know He gives me His grace for me to understand the mysteries of His Kingdom.
Does that sound right to you.
Elwyn
I can see what your saying, and agree - to a point. I would say though (and this is strictly theoretical - by no means should we fall into the trap of being exact to the letter, but failing to enact the words we see. It's about the fruit, yeah? Humility before the Creator, and taking our attitude from His) that faith in and of itself is something that all men posses, whether it is a strong faith, or weak - faith in truth or in error.
As christians though, our faith should be strong, unwavering and based in truth. [see itus 1:1 "Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the sake of the faith of God's elect and their knowledge of the truth, which accords with godliness"].
Now then... faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God (initial blog). Lets turn that around to read it properly...
Word of God > Hearing > Faith
[Source] > [Recipient]> [Action]
Now when looking at Matthew 13 (parable of the sower) we see that each person hears the same message, which is about the son of man and redemtion.
Essentially God's mercy is made known to us through grace, because of His love (agape - active and unconditional) for the world (His creation - intrinsically us the initial stwewards).
It is mercy that put Christ on the cross, it is grace that acended Him to heaven to sit at the right hand of the father. The riches of God's grace are towards us because He loves us - Jesus was the missing link that provided the mercy (perfected through His suffering).
It is because of the 'riches of God's grace' that we are allowed to here this message of mercy and redemtion, and grace abounds because of His love. It is the Father's wonderful way of expressing His everlasting love towards us in unmeasurable favour, giving more than we could ever hope or dream of. Praise Him.
So... it's in His grace, Elwyn, He gave you knowledge of His mercy, and the Holy Spirit helps you in having faith in that knowledge (gives you assurance). And He doesn't just give you grace to understand, He has made us sons and heirs with Yeshua. We are allowed into the holiest of holies and live as children before Him (as you would share all you have and are with yours).
Is that what they call an exegesis. I greatly appreciate the time,care and interest in replying and for encouraging me with what you wrote. One of the attributes of a Christian is that insatiable desire to communicate God's word. So be on your guard my friend with people who don't want to talk about God's word or the things of god.
In contrast to Alan Edwards who Angela and myself met while shopping today. Faithful old Alan was giving out tracts in the High street.He asked me what I thought of the Jews and the state of Israel. We call the Lord, Jesus of nazareth sometimes where the Jews called him Rabbi Yeshua of Narareth. I told Alan that there is nothing Gentile about Jesus or His message except that He loves Gentiles and wants to save us and wants us to believe in the Jewish God and the Jewish way of salvation.
Alan told me that he is part of a group of Christians who regularly pray for the nation of Israel, because they believe that the Jews are God's chosen people that God made hundreds of promises to preserve, protect, bless Israel and restore (restoration) her fully so that her end will be better than her beginning.
I say God bless Israel and may He also bless the body of Christ the Church.
What's your position on Israel?
Unsure. Having recently come back from there I have seen first hand the land and the people. I would love to try and show through scripture what is prophecied over Israel and what will become of her, but unfortunatley the subject is huge! However this is what I do know...
Romans 11
...As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all...
Also Luke 21
...But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled...
And again the latter part of Ezekiel 47
...The word of the Lord came to me: “Son of man, take a stick and write on it, ‘For Judah, and the people of Israel associated with him’; then take another stick and write on it, ‘For Joseph (the stick of Ephraim) and all the house of Israel associated with him.’ And join them one to another into one stick, that they may become one in your hand. And when your people say to you, ‘Will you not tell us what you mean by these?’ say to them, Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I am about to take the stick of Joseph (that is in the hand of Ephraim) and the tribes of Israel associated with him. And I will join with it the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, that they may be one in my hand. When the sticks on which you write are in your hand before their eyes, then say to them, Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I will take the people of Israel from the nations among which they have gone, and will gather them from all around, and bring them to their own land. And I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. And one king shall be king over them all, and they shall be no longer two nations, and no longer divided into two kingdoms. They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols and their detestable things, or with any of their transgressions. But I will save them from all the backslidings in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them; and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
“My servant David shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall walk in my rules and be careful to obey my statutes. They shall dwell in the land that I gave to my servant Jacob, where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children's children shall dwell there forever, and David my servant shall be their prince forever. I will make a covenant of peace with them. It shall be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will set them in their land and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in their midst forevermore. My dwelling place shall be with them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Then the nations will know that I am the Lord who sanctifies Israel, when my sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.
------------
So my position on Israel is that God will gather them out of the land (began with the Zionist movement), and will restore them to their former glory - IE the elect nation of God. Jerusalem has been handed over until the time of the gentiles is fullfilled. At this time Israel is in a crucible, but it has been engineered this way because God wants every nation to see that God is in the midst of them (His plan is designed, predetermined, His people elected and preserved, for the sake of His promise to Abraham. The Jews will once again take their rightful place as the keepers of the oracles of God under one king 'my servant david' (compare the lady in revelation 12, this is Israel)).
We are grafted into the vine that is Christ Jesus, uniting us with the Jews, but our future is rapture (like Enoch), the Jews future is as that of Methuselah (possibly), perseveering until the final Judgment. Noah represented the salvation of mankind through the atonement of Christ.
And scripture tells us to pray for the peace of Jerusalem - if we can have peace there then we can have peace anywhere. Yeshua is the answer. Does that sound a reasonable position?
1 Corinthians 12;13;
For by means of the personal agency of one holy Spirit we were all, whether Jews or Greeks, Slaves or free, Baptized and by baptism united togtether into one body, and all made of one Holy Spirit.
Galatians 3;27-28;
For as many of you as were batized into Christ9into spiritual union and communion with Christ) have put on and clothed yourself with Christ. There is now no distinction neaither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is not male and female, for you are all one in Christ.
is it not a fact that in Christ and through Baptism that jew and gentile no longer exist? is not Galatians mostly a letter from Paul rebuking a church for trying to act like Jews/
i am not anti-semetic one bit, but i see nor favor for the Jews over any other race on the earth today.
I can see this being a huge upset to western christians who support the jewish nations and then less for anyone else.
A jewish man or woman if not in Christ is not a Christian, as much as say a greek man who is not in Christ.
plus the high consideration evangelical Christians give the Jews, in the world today, is flat out dangerous and bad foreign policy.
There i said it, let the banishment begin
Ben
As I said - an unsure position. I have seen what has taken place between the Jews and the palestinians, and the arab nations hate Israel (you know about the policies of Ammehnidinejab (or whatever his name is!) the president of Iran?)
As always though, I love the discussion, and I hope that what you have said will help us both understand...
So, do you believe in replacment theology - that is are we the new Israel?
The reason I ask this is because there are many unfulfilled prophecies over Israel, also if you read chapters 10 and 11 of romans you find that even Paul here makes a distinction between both Jew and Gentile and also a commonality (compare 10:12 and chapter 11)
"Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree."
God will graft back the "broken branches" of the Jews into the olive tree. It is a promise to Jacob that God is upholding with the nation of Israel, and he has not finished with them. They are known as the remnant which shall be saved. A lot depends on your stance of the rapture, the coming of the anti-christ, and the final triumphal reign of God. Yes we are grafted into the vine that is Christ, the jews are freed from the law (it is fulfilled thus - “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” Luke 10:27), and we are given a new chance to be part of the promise.
But the Jews, the seed of Jacob, are still the seed of Jacob. We are heirs of the promise given to Abraham. However, Messeianic Jews, Jews who are christians will be raptured as part of the church (as we are now in the church age - or the time of the gentiles, luke 21).
This is to the best of my knowledge!
Agree/disagree?
Shalom Tiefion and Benjamin.
Can I come in on the side for a moment because there is a question on the table for Ben? Does he side with replacement theology?
We are not discussing here the Body of Christ, The Church. We all accept that The Church is made up of neither Jews or Gentiles etc. The issue here is the indisputable fact that Israel is the major topic of biblical prophecy, just like it's on our t.v. news and in the papers daily.
The word "Israel" is found 2,565 times in 2,293 verses in the King James Translation of the Bible. Does the modern, carnal nation of Israel play a significant part in the events of our world today as foretold in the Greatest book ever written, The Bible. So Ben do you believe that the Church has replaced Israel?.
what else do you have to say???
Ben
To Answer Elwyn, i don't think Israel has a significant part to play as much as any nation does -
Ben
I believe to deny the redemption of Israel is to question God's integrity. He has forever entwined the fate of Israel with the glory of His holy name. They will come to know their Messaiah, which they have formely rejected. While it is true (thankyou for the contibution of verses) that there is no distinction 'in' Christ, God has promised a great harvest of the nations based on His 'dealings' with Israel.
This means inclusion into the body, and freedom from the law. The work is done, it is finished. But the preaching and the international demonstration of His power has not. God Himself will glorify His own name by the salvation and inclusion of Israel, by establishing them in their land and by quelling the surrounding nations. "Every knee shall bow, and every tounge shall confess that Christ is LORD"
How would you interperet the following?
Isaiah 41:1-20, Jeremaiah 35:31-37, Luke 21:25-28, Joel 3, Amos 9:11-15, Ezekiel 37, Jeremiah 16:14-15, Ezekiel 34:13, Jeremiah 31:10.
God views us all as His creation, and those whome He has redeemed as His children. Israel was destined by God to be the source of light to the world, which became the woman (rev 12) who gave birth to the Messiah. All nations are included in the promise of redemption through Christ, one new man - as is now and will be after judgment. However, the jewish nation will continue to be a testimony to the faithfulness of God, and His integrity - because He will save them, he will cause them to recognize their Messiah.
Hi Teif,
Does the wayward nation of Israel play a part in God's plan and programme forever? That's what we are discussing. But our friend Ben what's to know "what else do I have to say?. So to my friend who lives out there in the constitutional republic of America.
May I encourage you to also seek that tremendous treasure chest of the knowledge of God and His Truth found in His Word, The Bible than just seeking after mere power.
When I was a little boy of eight my sunday school teacher told me that God would never ever break His promises. I remember it so well because at the time I was learning the cub boy scouts promise where I had to stand in the middle of a circle of other boy cub scouts with one hand on the union jack flag and the other hand raised and recite "I promise to do my best, to do my duty to God and to the Queen and to keep the cub scout law.
And that's my problem. Us mere men sometimes break our promises but God will never ever break His promises. Please read for yourselves Jerm 31, 35-37. because it says. As long has the sun comes up in the morning, the moon and stars shines at night, as long has the tides come in, the tides go out,as long as there is natural order in this world God said that Israel will remain a Nation before God for ever!
Now I know what for ever means.
No such promise were ever given to any other Nation because God has chosen Israel to be "a special people" above all people.(dt 7,6.)
God promises repeatedly "O Israel-I am with thee,to save thee (jer 30, 10-11 )
If the Nation of Israel is dead,or has been replaced by the Church and does not have an eternal future, then the term "God of Israel" would not be to the glory of God but a slur upon His character.
Why does God identify Himsef in the Bible as the God of Israel 203 times, the God of Jacob 28 times, the God of Abraham 17 times, and the God of Isaac 13 times?
Never does He call himself God of any other ethnic group and the idea that the church has replaced Israel even with the Knowledge that the Church is not a Nation is ridiculous.
When the Lord was sorting out the sadducees to show how wrong they were, He quoted the statement to Moses: I Am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations. (ex 3, 14-15 ) (matt 22, 29-32) (isa 43. 10 )
If the word "forever" or "everlasting" concerning Israel, if it doesn't mean everlasting, then how can we trust the promise in john 3-16 of everlasting life to us who believe on Jesus Christ.
May the God of the Bible bless us here as we search His Holy Word the Bible to check out if these things are so.
Elwyn.
REGARDING THE POST I HAVE PLACED ON JOE@S BLOGThe following are the main principles found in the Bible dealing with parental responsibilities:
Children are a gift from God to parents. There are both privileges and responsibilities resulting from this gift. Gen. 48:9; Psa. 127:3; Isa. 8:18
The chief responsibility of parents is the teaching and training of their children. Deut. 6:6,7; Prov. 22:6; 2 Cor. 12:14; Eph. 6:4; Col. 3:21; 1 Tim. 3:4,12; Tit. 2:4; Deut. 4:9; 31:13
Parents' duties include providing for children's physical needs. 2 Cor. 12:14
Parents are expected to administer correction involving discipline. Eph. 6:4; 1 Tim. 3:4; Deut. 4:9; Prov. 19:18; 22:15; 23:13
In all eras of Bible history, parents brought their children to public Bible teaching. Josh. 8:35; 2 Chron. 20:13; Neh. 12:43; Prov. 8:17,32; Matt. 21:15; Psa. 34:11; Prov. 3:1
See related passages also in Josh. 1:8; Heb. 3:13; Acts 2:46,47; 5:41,42; 16:4,5; 17:10,11
The Word of God is administered to children in large doses. 2 Tim. 3:15; 1 Sam. 2:26; Luke 1:80; 2:49
Parents must realize that children who, in later life, dishonor their parents, bear heavy consequences as the result of divine discipline. Deut. 21:20; 27:16; Prov. 15:20; 30:11; Micah 7:6; 2 Tim. 3:2; Matt. 15:4; Isa. 45:10.
Elwyn! That is a lot to read - I will go through those verses when I get a chance!
:-) Teifion
Hi Tief,
I am not disagreeing with you regarding what you wrote, in fact I would like to thank you for your study. the verses I offered more or less back up your conclusions.
In fact Angela and myself have spoken most of the morning about what you wrote (4hours of fellowship with our Lord in the centre )Your study counts of most value in our efforts of searching the scriptures so again the verses I offer will back up what you wrote. However I did ask you two questions on Joe's blog 1. the age of responsibilty, 2 the question on Judas!That issue of the tithe as come up and I am interested in Joe's and Ben's thoughts.
God bless Tief
Sorry Teif,
I have spelt your name wrong on the last comment. That's one of my many handicaps my lack of education lets me down especially when i am exchanging with "you guys".
I get quite envious of your education but have learnt not to allow it to intimidate me.So for future reference please make allowances for me.
Elwyn
Hi Elwyn,
I've finally had a chance to go through those verses you gave me (with regards to how children should be regarded). There doesn't seem to be anything specific said though about orphans or age of an adult (as such), though here is an extract from an encyclopaedia:
**In Judaism, Bar Mitzvah (Hebrew: בר מצוה, "one (m.) to whom the commandments apply") and Bat Mitzvah (בת מצוה, "one (f.) to whom the commandments apply," or Bas Mitzvah in Ashkenazi pronunciation), are the terms to describe the coming of age of a Jewish boy or girl. According to Jewish law, when Jewish children reach the age of majority (generally thirteen years for boys and twelve for girls) they become responsible for their actions, and "become a Bar or Bat Mitzvah." This also coincides with physical puberty.[1] Prior to this, the child's parents are responsible for the child's adherence to Jewish law and tradition, and after this age, children bear their own responsibility for Jewish ritual law, tradition, and ethics and are privileged to participate in all areas of Jewish community life.**
So, I guess you could say twelve or thirteen for age, if you wanted to follow tradition. If not, then perhaps when the child first wilfully disobeys. If the parent fails to correct the child it will allow it to carry on a destructive path through negligence.
But more importantly; the verses you have written!
(PS if an orphan is adopted then it's the new parent's responsibility to teach it, if it lives on the street, literally 'God help him'. He is a Father to the Fatherless. Also Paul's famous passage in Romans 1-3 deals with conscience. This why the work of the church through philanthropy and teaching is so important.)
Prov 19:18 –
Discipline your son, for there is hope;
do not set your heart on putting him to death.
Prov 22:15 –
Folly is bound up in the heart of a child,
but the rod of discipline drives it far from him.
Prov 23:13-14
Do not withhold discipline from a child;
if you strike him with a rod, he will not die.
If you strike him with the rod,
you will save his soul from Sheol.
It seems that scripture teaches the inevitability of the child sinning. It is indeed bound in his nature that he will (‘who can save me from this body of death?’). But it is the responsibility of the parent (and guardian/teacher) to teach a child the right way to live – the commandments and statutes of God. Now children will naturally trust the parent, but can also surprise you by spotting a fake! The bible teaches discipline through leadership (notice the verses you showed me of the children being present in scripture readings also showed the whole of the people). I would say then to send a child to Sunday school while a parent ignores this duty is counter productive. Bible teaches a parent to lead by example as well as to use correction. The above quote from proverbs 23 is quite sobering. A child’s mind is like a sponge and if it is not filled with good things it may eventually be filled with bad! Matt 15:4-6 shows us that it is a responsibility to look after your family’s needs before putting your efforts/finances elsewhere.
Bottom line is, if you want to teach your child the ways of a godly man, be that godly man to him. Just read the fate of Eli and his sons in Samuel.
God bless
Teifion
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